O'Donnell also asks some important questions about the benefit to taxpayers (even if he doesn't get answers):
However, not even a bully pulpit-wielding St. Pete Mayor Rick Kriseman is likely to stop the Edwards juggernaut, propelled by former St. Pete Mayor Rick Baker. Edwards/Baker have already demonstrated how a couple million in donations/lobbying investment can pay generous dividends.But would investing in soccer pay off for St. Petersburg?Economic impact studies typically are based on estimates of attendances and how many people a stadium attracts from outside the area for events....But whether the investment in stadiums pays off for cities is harder to quantify.Roughly $100 million of public money was used to build PPL park, home of the MLS team Philadelphia Union in Chester, Pennsylvania. The city has seen little economic benefit, said Eckstein.“The money cities invest is rarely recouped given the current dynamic of professional sports where revenues nearly always go to the teams,” he said. “If they are thinking it would provide some activity that would define the community together and give them some common purpose, they might think that’s worth it.”
And it may only be a matter of time before the juggernaut convinces not only St. Petersburg to open up the checkbook, but also the state...because as we all know, Major League Soccer draws millions of fans from all over the world to spend millions of dollars they otherwise never would have spent {tongue firmly planted in-cheek}.
Tampa and Miami already tried and failed at MLS. Don't know what has changed since then, but yeah, sure, try again.
ReplyDelete^ You obviously have not been paying attention for the past 12 years. Do your homework.
Delete"More kids are playing soccer" blah blah blah. Again, didn't work in Miami because they assumed the "Latin" market would embrace MLS not considering the fact that they support their country's team/players, not the sport "in general." Buc's get blacked out, Rays are 2nd to last in attendance, but yes, soccer moms will fill a new St. Pete stadium, which has been ripped for being inaccessible for baseball fans and too far away from the population base. Makes total sense.
DeletePeople, like Noah Pransky , who claim to be sports reporters, should get rid of their biases---or STFU.
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment.
DeleteAlways telling how commenters like the OP expose their own biases when they make remarks like that, too.
DeleteMr. Pransky, as well as Mr. O'Donnell, uses PPL Park in Chester, PA in their article/blog as an example of how a soccer stadium in St. Pete can go wrong. However, you fail to explain the back story of the Philadelphia Union and how they got their team in the first place. They had no team before MLS awarded them one, so there was no litmus test as to how the fanbase was like there. They have a supporters group, much like Rowdies do with Ralph's Mob, called the "Sons of Ben", who actively sought out an owner who could bring them a Soccer team. They finally did and a stadium was built shortly after that. Said stadium was built in Chester, which is in the outskirts of Philadelphia in an area that's nothing to write home about. In contrast, Downtown St. Pete has a lot going for it. It's a growing city with young professionals moving in who support the game of soccer because they grew up with it. As studies show, more young people play soccer than any other sport in this country. That demographic is getting older and moving into areas such as St. Pete, but, more importantly, they have disposable income. If you look at the Rowdies' attendance numbers, we either are on par or surpass the numbers that the Seattle Sounders had when they played in the 2nd Division before they jumped to MLS. Now, they average over 30,000 people per game. I'm not saying we will hit those numbers, but it certainly will be much better than the attendance we had during the days of the Tampa Bay Mutiny.
ReplyDeleteMr. Pransky, I ask that you seize the witch hunt in your blog and join the cause of improving Downtown St. Pete. Instead of bringing it down, you should embrace this movement, because once it happens (which it will) and you continue to write scathing articles about soccer in Downtown St. Pete, you'll be left in the dust along with everyone else who have put us down.
The Rays may disagree with "Downtown St. Pete...is a growing city with young professionals moving in who support the game of soccer because they grew up with it." A lot of young professionals grew up with baseball too, and there's just not enough disposable income - or desire to spend it on sports - to support four major league teams right now in the area.
DeleteMy task is not to shun soccer or Mr. Edwards' efforts...I think soccer could be great in Tampa Bay. But my job is to act as the public's watchdog and provide perspective.
If soccer is such a great deal and no-brainer, why doesn't Edwards propose a new stadium on his own dime?
If downtown St. Pete has so much going on for it, then explain the Rays attendance. Sorry, but a city that can't draw for MLB is magically going to draw for Major League Soccer? Which has already failed twice in Florida? The Rowdies and Strikers are averaging 4k a game. The MLS average is 18k which teams in markets like DC, New England, San Jose, Chicago, Colorado, and Columbus are not getting. This is not a witch hunt blog against the stat of soccer but the futility of tax payer subsidized stadiums.
ReplyDeleteThe Rays draw an average of 26k per game, which is paltry by MLB standards, but considering there are 58 games in a season, you have to wonder how bad their business planning is if they can't profit of that many people spending that much money that many times.
DeleteMLS is not like MLB. Al Lang is not like Tropicana Field. First off, the latter is surrounded by a sea of parking lots that are filled on game nights, and completely vacant the rest of the year. They do not bring ANY support to any of the local businesses, save for Fergs. They have ZERO major corporate sponsors, and frankly, it's a boring, slow paced sport to watch that has moments of greatness, sandwiched inbetween hours of entrenched stagnation.
But this isn't about whose game is better. It's about money, and what it does for the area. The Rowdies draw a little over 5k a game, but when the Mutiny came out in the late 90's, they filled Houlihan stadium with 60,000 plus. So you can't say soccer does not have a foothold on the Tampa Bay region. Like someone said above, the Sounders and Timbers pulled the same kind of numbers as the Rowdies are now - up until the point where they joined the MLS, and then it swelled up to 30k plus per match. Watch Orlando - they'll do the same thing. Soccer is a BIG draw both here and abroad, and a progressive, smart city would be best served by getting ahead of the curve, and structuring themselves for success.
The Rays are averaging roughly 17k per game.
DeleteYour number are off, Rays average 18k http://espn.go.com/mlb/attendance Rowdies just at 4k. And the rest of your argument is fantasy. Seattle, no NHL or NBA, Portland, no NHL, MLB, or NFL. So yeah, soccer draws. Buc's blacked out, Jaguars covering seats, NFL barely doing it in Florida, but yeah, MLS will flourish.
DeleteI said roughly 17k. That would incorporate up to 17.5k, which ESPN is probably doing to obtain a "18k" number.
DeleteLol the rowdies never put 60k in the old tampa stadium.
DeleteThe rowdies have no money for a mls franchise fee for the mls
St. Pete, Pinellas etc are not buying. A losing organization with 4k fans a stadium
Go home ralphs mob, youre drunk
Meant to say mutiny didnt put 60 in tampa stadiym
DeleteI was an (original) Rowdies Fanny, a Mutiny season ticket holder, and am now a regular fixture at Al Lang for the current Rowdies. I'd personally love to see MLS come back to Tampa Bay.
ReplyDeleteBut when I take off my green and gold glasses, I don't realistically see how this area can support another major league pro sports team. Maybe if the Rays move to downtown Tampa, it's possible that St. Pete will rally around the Rowdies enough to propel them into the 1st division. But even then, it's a risky proposition, imo.
Tampa cannot afford to support the Rays. They've already taxed their constituency hard for the Bucs and the Lightning. Asking them to drop another $700 million so a rich guy who lives in New York can have a shiny happy new place to play, is a bit stupid.
DeleteMr. Pransky doesn't even know yet how this hypothetical stadium will be financed, but that doesn't stop him from making assumptions and attacking soccer.
ReplyDeleteAs has already been mentioned, if you are going to latch on to the PPL Park example as one of poor economic impact, then you are deliberately skewing the conversation and ignoring the massive differences between Chester, PA and St. Pete.
As far as the question about the Rays attendance if downtown St. Pete has so much going for it, again, that is a special situation. For starters, the Rays play over 80 home games, many of which are mid day and/or mid week. The Rowdies in MLS would play 17 regular season home games, give or take (depending on future expansion of the league and regular season format). Those are primarily weekend and night games.
The Rays have always struggled to fill the Trop, from the very beginning. People blame everything from transplant fans supporting their teams "back home" to the Trop being a "dump". The truth is probably much more diverse than that, but at the end of the day comparing soccer to baseball, and particularly comparing the challenges each faces in filling a stadium, just doesn't work out.
A MLS team needs 18,000 fans 17 times in the regular season to fill a stadium. The Rays need 30,000 fans over 80 times a season to fill the Trop. I like the MLS team's chances far more.
I love how the only person here supporting it is obviously in with the team.
Deletealso 10 of the 19 teams aren't even averaging the MLS average of 18k so making it sound like it's and easy goal is a huge assumption. http://mlsattendance.blogspot.com/
DeleteActually, Mr. Pransky knows how the stadium would likely be financed - Edwards indicated it would be paid by the city/county/state. That's why he loves the idea so much - wouldn't you??
DeleteMutiny attendance figures:
ReplyDeleteAverage attendance[edit]
1996: 11,679
1997: 11,338
1998: 10,312
1999: 13,106
2000: 9,452
2001: 10,479
Total Average: 11,106
Furthermore, if the Rowdies draw 18k a game at the expense of the Rays, the Mahaffey, or any other St. Pete tourist attraction....there's no net benefit to the city.
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know the city of St Pete has shown no interest in selling Al Lang or the site it sits on. Wouldn't that be a necessity if Bill Edwards was to pay for a new stadium with his own money like you advocate?
ReplyDeleteIf he offered up the funds, it wouldn't take much for council to sign off on an agreement - doesn't necessarily require sale of land.
Delete