Friday, September 4, 2015

Toytown Development Moves Forward

It's long been the opinion on this blog one of the most likely places for a new Rays stadium would be the Toytown property in the East/Central part of Pinellas County: it's right off the highway; it's not far from the Howard-Frankland Bridge; and most importantly, Pinellas County has the money to pool together for a new stadium.

It's not ideal (the cost to clean up the former landfill might be prohibitive, for starters)...but as I wrote this summer, it's something.  The county tried to move the project forward once, in 2010, before the economy doomed the deal.

But things may be back on track now as the Times' Tony Marrero reports, with three developers, including stadium-minded Darryl LeClair, bidding on the 240-acres of land at Toytown:
A Bay Buzz reporter who called Thursday was forwarded to a prerecorded message by Chris Eastman, Echelon’s chief development officer at Echelon, that confirmed the company submitted a proposal.

“Out of respect for the company’s process, we will not be commenting to the media at this time,” Eastman said.
The bids aren't public yet, so we don't know if stadiums were included in the plans, but a second bidder has an intriguing tie to stadium speculation - the LLC's name was "SunRay Park":
SunRay Park remained a mystery Thursday. There's a SunRay Park and Casino in Farmington, N.M. but it's unclear if there's a connection. A message left at the casino was not returned. 






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51 comments:

  1. In the meantime, Warren Cromartie will meet the Red Sox owner this weekend to promote the return of baseball in Montreal and get official support.

    https://twitter.com/MTLbbproject/status/639485592712151041

    And Philippe Cantin from La Presse think that Paul Beeston would be a key person to help the Montreal investors/MBP team to make things happen.

    http://plus.lapresse.ca/screens/ff92aa9e-a98b-41a2-a876-800e9bee19ca%7C_0.html

    And yes Noah (just in case you question it), Philippe Cantin from La Presse is a very credible journalist for many years and La Presse is an institution not only in Montreal but in Canada too. So this content is serious. Very serious.

    Mayor Coderre and Montreal Baseball Project/investors need to be more vocal on the implications of such project (cost, funding, site for the new stadium, ...).

    Off-the-record, Mayor Coderre told the Expos fans to be ready, he will need them in 2016 (probably before the pre-seasons games at the Big O).

    Stay Tuned!

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    1. Many credible journalists also wrote stories about teams going to Charlotte, Portland, as well as Tampa Bay for about a decade before MLB finally granted the region the Rays.

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    2. Charlotte and Portland also are in other teams' TV territory, and neither have hosted nearly 200,000 fans for 4 games in the last two years. I would think the big takeaway from this would be the fact that the MBP has investors, stadium plans, and are meeting with team owners, looking for votes.

      Stu says he won't move the team, but he also has said that he's not going to be the owner come 2021 if the lease is still an issue. Hard not to believe that anyone wouldn't pay off the 50 million or so that St Pete wants, if it meant someone was going to build them a new park elsewhere.

      As time continues to move on, it becomes harder to lump Montreal in with Charlotte or Portland.

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    3. Take the Quebec city and Las Vegas as example before the NHL announce the expansion process. Lots of cities were making the new.

      At the end of the day, only 2 were ready to talk to the NHL.

      So just trowing names for trowing names, it's a smokescreen.

      And if I'm reading it right (but I have no proof), more than one investment group in Montreal may be interested to jump in. NY investors are ready to back a group from Montreal.

      So this is why all the MLB doors are open right now. In Portland, the latest news is that the MLB representatives are looking to visit the town and see if such project is possible.

      In Montreal it's the opposite. The doors are open and in some cases, MLB teams are calling to have a meeting with Mayor Coderre and MBP representatives.

      That's a hell of a different story.

      Delete
  2. So your answer is moving the Rays from a downtown in St. Pete to an area with not much around & no one within walking distance (which has been said was needed by them), over a downtown Tampa with what will be close to 10k people living downtown, Ybor & Channelside's entertainment, and 40 mi. roundtrip less for everyone in Orlando & Disney...
    Why would they do that?

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    1. So the question is does TB have a Pitch Perfect site?

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    2. http://forums.theraysrepublic.com/index.php?showtopic=2151

      I think Lane Park in Tampa is an obvious choice. Obviously their are renovation plans, but I am sure they can change plans.

      Here are a few locations I have proposed with visuals.

      Fred Lane Park:
      http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k237/selgy/Stadium/FredLanePark.png

      East Ybor:
      http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k237/selgy/Stadium/YborEast.png and http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k237/selgy/Stadium/YborEastRoads.jpg

      The rest of my locations: http://s89.photobucket.com/user/selgy/library/Stadium?sort=3&page=1

      Delete
  3. Sports making areas $, I thought it doesn't happen?http://www.myclearwater.com/news/news_detail.asp?item={3A50B648-69B8-4B72-913B-FF8076890384}
    Just another example that debunks this blog's ideology!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It happens a lot more for cities all across this country and around the world then this blog would ever admit!

      Delete
    2. Just search this board for "heads in beds" - there's a big difference between pro sports facilities (which don't tend to magnify economy) and youth sports facilities (which draw out-of-towners in for NEW economic activity).

      Delete
  4. TheMontreal "dream" of obtaining an MLB team is only a dream. Not gonna happen. Just because someone had a meeting or conveyed that "it would be nice to have baseball in Montreal again," doesn't amount to dog-squeeze. You can take that to the bank!

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    1. "Take that to the bank", you lost your credibility with your Ybor expiration date in August.

      BTW, Mayor Coderre is in Toronto, visiting Paul Beeston today while assisting to the Jays game. You know, Paul Beeston, one of the most influential president in MLB, now a very good friend of Coderre.

      https://twitter.com/DenisCoderre/status/639960631727255552

      And don't take that to the bank, you know in Canada, the banking system is very very solid and your credit score is zero.

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    2. Dufala's been telling us to take the Channelside blueprints to the bank for years:
      http://shadowofthestadium.blogspot.com/2013/02/today-in-papers.html?showComment=1362175027718#c9159034342640031001

      Delete
    3. Well, as you know, progress takes time. Channelside is years from being built up, though I'm sure they would like to finally be able to use the Rays new ballpark as a marketing ploy to draw more developers & investors to the eastside of downtown Tampa. I guess in the mean while they'll enjoy their cheap living at the Trop...

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  5. I can't help but think that this location, which looks to be maybe 20 minutes from the Trop, isn't going to address any of the issues which allegedly keep people from games. Easy to think that prices would go up, as they look to be in Atlanta, and traffic on the bridges would remain the same. There also still remains no progression on the mass transit issue which has been mentioned by several readers. Sure, a new park would be an improvement in theory, but after that "new park smell" wears off, will attendance make it worth the move?

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    1. Thanx for your insight "Debby Downer"! lol

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    2. Yawn. Perhaps you would care to explain how a new stadium in this Toytown area will ease the current attendance woes facing this team? Sure, fans can't be bothered to show up when the team plays meaningful baseball because the stadium "sucks", but they'd suddenly overlook their current excuses regarding St Pete because the park is new? It hardly sounds like a so-called "Pitch Perfect" location.

      Delete
  6. Matt,

    Very good point about bridge traffic. In fact, bridge traffic will get worse if indeed, 5,000 to 10,000 more fans per game show up!

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    1. It's a terrible "point about bridge traffic", i275 will be 10 lanes by then, along with having i4, Selmon, and other smaller main roads like sr60 & Bayshore to get from Channelside...

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    2. Good. Then we can finally bury the bridge traffic excuse.

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    3. B. Dufala,
      When is 'by then' when the Howard Frankland will be 10 lanes? Is that 10 lanes each way?

      Delete
  7. Looks like the BoSox want the Rays to move to Montreal as well.

    http://nesn.com/2015/09/baseball-returning-to-montreal-could-be-good-for-red-sox-fans-video/

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    Replies
    1. This video/comment was done/released the day Warren Cromartie was in Boston to meet the owner and the president.

      Coincidence or not, more and more news/article/comments like that (referring to baseball in Montreal through an expansion or the Rays moving) will be published.

      Jon Paul Morosi just did it this morning regarding the Canadian market and how stronger baseball is North of the border.

      http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/toronto-blue-jays-playoff-push-increased-attendance-big-market-team-baseball-back-canada-090715

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    2. Morosi points out that since Montreal left for DC, Toronto has had the whole country of Canada to itself for MLB. Will Toronto play nice if the Montreal thing is for real and will result in Toronto losing revenue?

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    3. It won't necessarily be up to Toronto to determine market segment and I doubt they will be able to demand any significant revenue compensation for the re-placement team back in Montreal.

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    4. If you follow closely what is going on in Toronto but also in Montreal, the Blue Jays have fans all over Canada and even in Montreal but nothing that can compare to the number of fans Montreal will have if the Expos are back.

      In fact, remember that for years, the biggest seller in MLB gears in Canada (after NYY and the Red Sox) are Expos gears. And this is true for many years. MLB is making tons of money even in 2015 with no team in Montreal.

      Toronto will make way more money (and the words way more are weak) just on the advertising side (remember Rogers owns the Jays, the stadium and Sportsnet) with games against Montreal in Toronto than what they are making with the Jays right now.

      Even if Paul Beeston is retirering at the end of this season, the Blue Jays are behind the return of the Expos, no doubt about that. That why mayor Coderre was saying this weekend:

      Statuesque prez?

      Outgoing president Paul Beeston showed Montreal mayor and baseball enthusiast Denis Coderre around during batting practice.

      “Paul doesn’t have a statue here at the Rogers Centre,” said Coderre. “But for all the help he has been, we’ll be building him one in Montreal for all the help he has been in bringing baseball back to Montreal.”

      http://www.torontosun.com/2015/09/05/all-in-the-glove-for-jays-tulowitzki

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    5. Pat,
      With MLB making so much money, the taxpayers of Montreal won't have to pay for the new stadium, right?

      How many games a year will be at Toronto against Montreal?

      Delete
    6. Scott,

      A. I will answer your first question even if you suggest an answer as part of the question.

      Taxpayer money is an important topic in Montreal, Quebec, Canada. We know that the federal government is not investing directly in sports team or facilities (that's OK) but they do invest in infrastructure projets if the project is a priority within the budget for that party/city/region.

      Rule #1, private investments must be set first for a new stadium. As you may know, Bell Center was financed 100% by the owner of the Habs at the time of construction. Alouettes (CFL), Impact (MLS) and soon to be Nordiques (NHL) received money from taxpayers for their venues.

      Alouettes play at McGill University football field which needed investments (very old stadium), that's why Montreal and Quebec government invested.

      Impact is playing at Saputo stadium that was build by the Saputo family first. Then, investments was required to increase the number of seats for the MLS and Quebec government as well as Montreal invested if I'm right only during that phase 2.

      Finally, Quebec city needed a new arena, the old Colisée Pepsi was built in the 1960's (very expensive to maintain) and the city needed a multi-fontional place for shows, events, and of course hockey. This is why the Videotron Center was built with funding from Quebec government as well as Quebec city. By the way, the construction cost budget was $400M CAD and they ended-up at $380M CAD. Once a hockey team in back, the arena will be fully profitable with all the events scheduled. Quebecor is in the final stage to negotiate a NHL expansion team, more details will be released in the coming weeks/months.

      Regarding a baseball stadium in Montreal, it is clear that investments must start from the private sector. Once that said, the funding model is still not presented nor debated at this time.

      Here is what Montreal Mayor have to say about funding.

      Denis Coderre talks baseball
      http://theconcordian.com/2015/09/38321/

      There are several scenarios on the table and direct money from the governments was not identify at this stage. But it is clear that if money outside from the private sector is required or asked, there must be a ROI for the parties participating in such funding.

      For more details, here are the economic impact of building a new stadium on the local, the regional and the provincial economy, here is the complete study.

      http://www.ccmmdev.com/baseball/analyse_retombees_baseball_131212.pdf

      B. Same number of games that the Rays are playing against Toronto. And I know where you are going with that question.

      The important point here is that Rogers/Blue Jays are not making a lot of money out of the Jays games/gears in Quebec. Only when they signed Russell Martin, they exposure increased. So regarding territory rights/constraints, it is a non-issue. Otherwise, why the hell the Blue Jays played games in Montreal in the last two years if they want to blocked/monetize the TV/territory rights?

      Delete
  8. Naysayers for baseball's return back to Montreal are ignorant of baseball's rich history as well as the interest level for the sport in Montreal.

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    1. Well said.

      Just the comments of Morosi about ExposNation thanks for the article this morning says a lot on the mindset of the well connected persons in MLB.

      https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/641274225278382080

      ExposNation ‏@ExposNation
      @jonmorosi @FOXSports Jon, where do we send the fruit basket? Thanks for your continued work.

      Jon Morosi ‏@jonmorosi
      @ExposNation @FOXSports No need -- I'll buy postgame poutine at La Banquise after first game of Les Nouvelles Expos.

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    2. As I've said on here for a long time, The Expos will be linked to the Rays until the Rays do something about it. The problem for the Rays, is that the idea of the Expos replacing them in the AL East makes too much sense. Suddenly all the teams are within driving distance, making for better rivalries. Combine that with the fact that their brand takes a hit every time a writer mentions this idea. After all, if the Rays were a draw, or had a modern stadium, nobody would even consider the idea. The fact is that this Montreal movement has only been around for a few years, and has incredible momentum, to the point that people believe that it's a "when" and not "if" the Expos return. Does anyone believe the same "when" and not "if" as it pertains to the Rays getting a new park in the Tampa Bay area before 2027, if ever?

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    3. As I've said on here for a long time, The Expos will be linked to the Rays until the Rays do something about it. The problem for the Rays, is that the idea of the Expos replacing them in the AL East makes too much sense. Suddenly all the teams are within driving distance, making for better rivalries. Combine that with the fact that their brand takes a hit every time a writer mentions this idea. After all, if the Rays were a draw, or had a modern stadium, nobody would even consider the idea. The fact is that this Montreal movement has only been around for a few years, and has incredible momentum, to the point that people believe that it's a "when" and not "if" the Expos return. Does anyone believe the same "when" and not "if" as it pertains to the Rays getting a new park in the Tampa Bay area before 2027, if ever?

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    4. Exactly Matt.

      But I want to clarify one point. The original team that started the Baseball Return in Montreal began their work in 2009 or 2010. But you are right on the fact that the movement got more traction in 2013 when the first studies were released and when Cromartie joined the movement.

      While talking about Cromartie, here is the latest news on his visit to Boston yesterday. Press release was issued few minutes ago.

      http://montrealbaseballproject.com/en/warren-cromartie-meets-with-red-sox-upper-management/

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    5. Would be interesting rivalries in the AL East if the RAys become the Expos....

      Sadly, no WS option for Jays vs Expos in that case....

      Delete
  9. Red Sox and Jays to play pre-season games in Montreal April1st/2nd 2016.... official announcement to come next week. Other match-ups for 2016 to be announced soon as well.

    And that folks, you can reliably take to a Canadian Bank!! ;-)

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    1. While I'm not partial to our Canadian banks, given the dollar plunge and the way they squeeze me on exchange rates, I do like this announcement, and will make the trip again. I wonder if regular season games will be an option for 2016 as well? I guess the Jays could be real jerks about it, and host a summer series against the Rays in Montreal. That could either really further damage the Rays brand, or FINALLY get something going on this never ending stadium saga.

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    2. Regarding acceptance of regular season games, it is still a rumour. Unless you have better sources than me on this topic.

      The challenge with regular season games right now is that the Big O must invest in the field/facilities in order to have a certified MLB stadium.

      So such investment is possible but I think it will take more than just 2-3 games in 2015 to allow such investments. And probably Evenko, that is managing the event/games process, will ask MLB for a multi-years deal to amortized the investment.

      The existing field is not suitable for MLB regular seasons games based on Steve Rogers comments last week.

      Not sure the Blue Jays will play regular games in Montreal too. With the quality of their team, the season ticket holders may not accept to have the Jays playing games elsewhere. There are implications for a team like the Jays that are successful.

      However, other teams could be interested to play in Montreal considering their low attendance numbers in April or May. Cleveland is one of them. And against the Rays, it may be a perfect match to fill the Big O.

      Remember that this is a high exposure event for any teams and it will be profitable too for them to draw 52 000+ fans per game.

      Delete
  10. Instead of talking about downtown Tampa vs Montreal, I think the expansion idea of what other cities will get a MLB team is a more realistic conversation. (other then Mon.) Round out a 32 team 4 teams per division 16 per league like the NFL, with the winner of each division playing in the playoffs opposed to this wild card stuff...
    Not just my thoughts of what will happen, it's Rob Manfred's too!
    How perfect is this for MLB? They use Montreal to get the Rays to build their new planned park in Channelside while they use the other to get Oakland in gear...
    Don't "take it to the bank", put it in the safe under the bed! lol

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    1. Plus, I won't be surprised if them & the Rays already know about the expansion. But, it would be hard to find out for sure what's said behind their closed-doors, even for a great "investigator reporter" like NO'ah...

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    2. Of course, preferred scenario for MLB and Montreal is an expansion team, no doubt about that. In fact, the last thing MLB want is to loose expansion fees from Montreal just to relocate the Rays.

      Once that said, no expansion process will start until the situation in Oakland and TB are resolved. This is why Montreal is all over the place in the discussion. MLB, journalists and fans can't wait to have Montreal back with a team. Even the opponents teams love to play in Montreal with all the restaurants, the attractions, the people, ...

      I do think that Montreal got some kind of confirmation from MLB because the Mayor said publicly in Cooperstown it's not IF but WHEN the Expos will be back. With all the political experience the mayor have, saying that publicly is quite bold and if he say such thing, it's because he knows some things that we don't and he's confident enough to say it loud and clear.

      My reading of what is going on in Montreal is that not one but two groups are ready to invest in baseball. And if this is right, this is a perfect scenario for MLB to have competition to raise the price (of a an expansion team or a re-location) and to make sure a new stadium will be funded with private money without playing the game with the governments.

      We'll see in the next 12-18 months. The clock is ticking for the Rays and with disastrous attendances numbers like in 2015, Sternberg will not wait until 2020 to sell the team if it's still a dead end with St-Pete city council.

      Next step, D7 election.

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    3. Maybe Portland or Charlotte, eh Noah?

      Kidding aside, I do like the idea of a 32 team league, eliminating the need for daily interleague. Either making it a special once or twice a year league wide event, to make it a little more special, or get rid of it entirely.

      As for league structure, I'd go with 2 eight team divisions in both leagues. Division winners get a bye into the Divisional series, and the second and third place team play a one game playoff, like our current wild card game. Then you have the DS, CS, and WS as normal, just with 4 wild card games instead of two, so the schedule doesn't have to stretch into November. The wild card game has proven to be a success, creating a guaranteed "Game 7" vibe, plus it has dramatically changed the trade deadline for teams on the edge, so I think it would be a mistake to remove it.

      Plus, I can't see a 4 team division because it guarantees that teams in lousy divisions can make the playoffs ahead of teams with better records. There's no way MLB wants to eliminate the chance of both the Red Sox and Yankees or Dodgers and Giants rivalries in the postseason.

      Either way expansion is overdue, given the fact that pitching has passed hitting. The Rays can make it happen, and secure their space for years to come as long as they come up with some sort of stadium deal. And let's not forget the possible SCOTUS deadline coming up this month regarding the A's and San Jose. Then maybe the Tampa Bay and Montreal talk around here can be about a rivalry, instead of the current tug of war.

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  11. I think your right Matt about wanting to keep a possible Red Sox vs Yankees or other great rivalry series like it in the playoffs, plus they did have a 2 division per league (east & west) for a long time. All and all, with all the obvious facts, it's hard to believe (unlike some) that the Rays aren't poised for a new home on the eastside of downtown Tampa, and what's funny is it's thanks to the Lightning owner Vinik more so then Stu...

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  12. LOL... Stay tuned for Rays vs Marlins to be played in Puerto Rico in 2016 very soon... win-win for both Fla teams - both get increased attendance and will make the Rays' move outta Fla easier....

    Marlins already confirmed for Marlins/Pirates regular season games in Puerto Rico.

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  13. Sternberg said he hasn't spent much time thinking about the vote since it's out of his control or the whole stadium issue.

    "I'm going to get at it after the season," he said. "The tick-tock is getting louder. We're going to have to make some decisions, everybody is going to have to make some decisions. It's 2016 already."


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    1. "the tick-tock is getting louder" isn't an accurate analogy. Stu doesn't need to spend much time on the stadium issue because a lot of the work is already done, now it's just a waiting game with the city of St. Pete & the progress of Channelside...

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    2. I agree it's a sit down and wait game right now.

      However, if all the work is already done, just wondering why any info leaked? That's does not make sense.

      Of course, several studies on economical impact, analysis of each sites/region were performed to some extend but I doubt the real work that matters is done once Stu received a go from St-Pete to look elsewhere.

      It will take at least 18-24 months to prepare/perform the work once Stu can start looking at different sites in Tampa Bay. And then, if the funding is available (private and/or public, no matter which allocation between all the parties), it's another 2-3 years (at least) to have a stadium.

      So considering the official deadline that Stu said publicly is 2023 (he will sell the team by that year if nothing happen), there not a lot of time remaining before such deadline.

      Of course, I assume that Sternberg will do what he said previously. Otherwise, all those discussions means nothing.

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    3. lol, where talking about what's dubbed by most as "the smartest front office in sports". I think your under estimating them. "Why any info leaked"? Why wasn't any about the Great Recession, or other ball parks, or what fast food use to put into their foods? Because they're good financial elitist, people in general are dumb, and there's a lot of slow "investigative" reporters in the media, especially on the local level...

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  14. The clock is ticking and the tick tocks are getting louder indeed. Stu has a lot to think about come November. And the choices are not IF the team will move (out of Trop) but WHERE (Tampa or Montreal) and WHEN (way before 2017 - 2020)

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    1. That's why the longer St-Pete council takes time to try to keep the Rays, smaller will be the UA opt-out penalties for the Rays.

      Based on latest results on St-Pete economical recovery that are not too bad, value of Trop. site is increasing for promoters.

      http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/report-tampa-st-pete-rank-in-middle-of-major-city-economic-recoveries/2245470

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    2. St Pete council will completely drop the ball on this.

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