Expect another round of stadium banter to fire up this week as the Rays, the current leaders for the AL's top wild card spot, host the Rangers on ESPN Wednesday night.
But if Monday night's crowd (10,724) was any indication of what we'll see at the Trop on Wednesday, expect the Stadium Saga to be the league-leader in criticisms.
With just seven home games left, the Rays (18,638) seem destined for another last-place finish in the attendance column. The team is down 981 fans per game from last year and would need a few huge crowds to catch the 29th-place Marlins (19,267) or 28th-place Indians (19,435), who are ironically right on the Rays' tails for the wild card.
At least one super-fan is trying to prevent the Rays-bashing...Brett Morgan launched the "Top Off the Trop" campaign, aimed at getting a respectable crowd in front of those ESPN cameras Wednesday night, but here in football country, the odds are stacked against him.
Of course, all the attendance talk may be a moot point since pro teams are counting less and less on ticket sales for their revenues...
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You have to give Stu credit - his perpetually telling us how bad the Trop is has worked. Even with the Rays in the wild card chase and unemployment down from 9% last year to 7% this year, attendance is down year over year.
ReplyDeleteIf I did not attend games at the Trop, I would have incredibly low expectations of how terrible a place the Trop must be.
Way to go Stu!
It is terrible, I can't get through 4 innings without my allergies acing up -- just look at the vents. Dead bats during the RNC party, no local food, etc
DeleteIt was a stadium built on spec in the 1980s to try and get a team. It got a team, but soon after the way stadiums were built changed and pretending that didn't happen is ridiculous.
You can not want public money for a new one -- but pretending its not an old and crappy venue is ridiculous. You can even claim attendance doesn't have to do with of that -- but claiming the trip is nice is just myopic.
The owner has been telling us for years how much the stadium sucks. He shouldn't be surprised when people take him at his word.
ReplyDeleteBut Noah's been telling us how awesome it is during that same time. Doesn't that cancel out the owners comments.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised that Noah didn't post some Yankees attendance figures from the early 1900's to make us feel better about the 10k fans in attendance.
Or Marlins attendance #'s playing a day game against the Brewers in the middle of the summer at Joe Robbie Stadium, lol...
DeleteWell, as much as I love the Trop, only 10k sucks! Though it's still a tent surrounded by water during one of the months where the snowbirds having comeback yet, in a county that stops the buses after 10pm, where it's still a 60 mile round trip from where the heart of the area most population are...
ReplyDeleteThough let's keep it real, we complain, BUT none of went to the game last night...
We also shouldn't forget the Marlins were clearly lying early on (and perhaps now) about their attendance. I recall seeing a photograph early in the season showing about 300 people in the stadium, and the reported attendance was in five digits.
ReplyDeleteIt is in the Marlins political interest to pad their attendance numbers. It is in the Rays political interest to downplay theirs.
You might not know this Brendan, but it's called "paid attendance"! It's why the Rays are moving to Channelside, for more corporate support in ticket sales, because when NY says they have 40k they'll usually will only be 30k-35k, but when the Rays say they have 11k they really have 10k in the house...
DeleteSome of your comments are hilarious.
ReplyDeleteFirst, in response to David, I have never read anything on this site, in absolute support of the Trop. Furthermore, Noah is, gasp, attempting to look at the Stadium Saga objectively, without giving an opinion one way or the other. Heaven forbid a journalist actually report something, without an opinion. To that end, heaven forbid that he actually points out that attendance is dropping across the board -- it's indicative of a problem that MLB needs to fix.
Secondly, dear Anonymous, next time have the courage to include your name. An email address for conversation purposes would be also wonderful. After all, if this indeed is a forum for the open exchange of ideas, your one-and-done is a dead-end road. What's that? It's easier to spew inanities anonymously? Ooooh, I get it now. Any-who, In response to your eloquently written comment, "It is terrible, I can't get through 4 innings without my allergies acing up -- just look at the vents. Dead bats during the RNC party, no local food, etc," A. We live in Florida, a state where allergies are always flaring up. I have allergy induced asthma to the point where I get bronchitis three times annually, and I still go to games regularly. Take allergy meds, and suck it up. B. I'd hate to break it to you, but every stadium has concerns with errant wildlife -- new ones included. Little known fact: bats live (and die) in high places, like trees, houses and stadiums regardless of the age. C. The concession stands are run by a company contracted out by the Rays -- Not the city of St. Pete (who owns the facility), but the Rays. To that end, the Rays have done a good job at supporting local breweries, like Cigar City. Nevertheless, if you want to point the finger at someone for concessions, point it firmly at the Rays.
As it relates to Anonymous Number Two, fine, I'll concede the point, St. Pete may very well be inhabited low class dirtbag citizens, but at least we know how to spell, and use the grammar check option on our computers. That's something, right? The only difference between Bob "the carpetbagger" Buckhorn and Bill Foster, is that Buckhorn sells his ideas better. Fact: if you actually spent time in St. Pete, gasp...YOU'D NOTICE A LOT OF REDEVELOPMENT IN AND AROUND DOWNTOWN. And yes, unlike Tampa -- where owners of retail and vacant living complexes have to pander to the local media to do fluff pieces on their uninhabited buildings -- downtown St. Pete is actually thriving.
I'm certainly not implying that the Trop is perfect, nor do I think that it should be the long-term home of the Rays. Yes, they need a new facility. But the fact of the matter is, no amount of excuse making is going to fill the facility we have in the present tense. And for the sake of argument, lets assume that a new stadium may fix the attendance problem in the long run (though evidence in other markets proves contrary). How exactly does that fix the current attendance problem? After all, it does take some time for a new stadium to be built, and the Rays would be housed in the Trop until completion.
The solution is simple: Stop making excuses, and get out to games.
Sincerely,
Anthony/belowaverageraysfansite@gmail.com
Noah objective... You must be fairly new to the site.
DeleteYes Noah mainly comments about other writers articles, but think about the comments he writes. If someone posts a pro-new Tampa stadium article, have you ever seen him post ANY comments in support of it, or does he poke holes in the article. Whenever you see an article about how bad the attendance is, do you ever see Noah chastise the fan base or admit there is an attendance problem, no he cherry picks some attendance figures from some rainy Monday day game in Minnesota, to say there's no problem. When there is an article in support of Foster or talking about Foster and St. Pete has he ever contradicted what is said. Has he ever objectively discussed potential benefits of a new stadium. To me he seems like Foster's mouthpiece, but he's a good source for amalgamating Rays stadium saga articles. His own spin on those articles is anything but objective.
It's not so much about giving opinions, because let's keep it real, his opinion is just another opinion, it's more about actually "investigating" the topic opposed to re-reporting other journalist's written articles. I'm knocking him for being naive, or narrow minded to the matter, because it's a personalty trait of most people from Boston like he is. But don't try to put yourself out there as the cattleist on the issue, and not investigate the issue to find out the answers. The sad part is that his news co. set up interviews w/ those involved, and hasn't ever seems to ask real questions, I mean if I was in his position with his resources, I wouldn't need to "assume" things...
DeleteMy job is to provide perspective on one-sided pieces and act as the taxpayer's/baseball fan's watchdog.
Delete"My job is to provide perspective on one-sided pieces and act as the taxpayer's/baseball fan's watchdog." LOL, 1 sided says it all about you! And, there's a difference between being a "watchdog" (as if your going to stop financial elitist from being progressive) & simply being a smalltime digressive that bashes everything, and offers no solutions of his own...
DeleteDavid, your insinuation about me is funny at best.
ReplyDeleteI stand by what I said. Why? Because I seen him poke holes in articles regarding new facilities in other locations as well (such as Carrilon), not just Tampa. It just so happens that most of the articles surround a new facility in Tampa. To that end, it's not his job to offer support for a new facility anywhere -- he's a journalist, not a yes man or an advocate. A very wise man once wrote, "A journalist's job isn't to give his opinion." I'd also argue that a journalists job isn't to sit tacitly by, it is to poke holes in arguments.
And no, he hasn't spoken of the potential benefits of a new stadium in Tampa per se, however he also hasn't spoken to the potential benefits of a new stadium in St. Pete/Pinellas. And Foster's mouthpiece? Hardly! At most he's attempted to show that both sides are culpable in the matter, not just Foster.
"A journalists job isn't to give his opinion", that's all Noah does. Post someone else's article and his opinion. If its in support of a new stadium in Tampa, his opinion comes out in pointing out every hole in the article, without ever highlighting any potential benefit. If its in support of staying at the Trop or anything Foster says, he leaves it as it or adds further opinion in support. This is not objectivity. This is his opinion. It might come in the form of some facts, but by skewing those facts and only showing those that support his opinion, means, that is what he is showing. I'm fine with that its his site, but its certainly not objective.
DeleteI'm also fine with Noah poking holes in arguments. That is a journalists job. But by poking holes in anything Sternberg says at every turn while giving Foster a free pass, and unrelenting support is not journalism. It is editorializing your opinion.
Also, do a quick Google search for "Noah Pransky Mayor Foster." One of the first hits is an interview with DRaysBay:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.draysbay.com/2011/12/7/2616941/stadium-talk-with-noah-pransky
My friend, I think that you may be cherry picking things.
So he said something negative about Foster 2 years ago. I guess Foster is keeping a pretty low profile since then.
Delete"If someone posts a pro-new Tampa stadium article, have you ever seen him post ANY comments in support of it"
ReplyDeleteIt strikes me that Noah would absolutely be in support of it if it came with some ideas on how to fund it. But you're right, he definitely dismisses pie in the sky "let's build a stadium here!" or "let's build a stadium there!" without concrete ideas how to fund it. Not 1/3 of it or 1/2 of it, but all of it.
And though I wish he would, Noah does not seem to reject out of hand the idea of a multi-county tax to fund a new stadium. Whether he supports such a tax or not, I don't know. But he does seem to think it might be the only way a new Rays stadium ever happens.
"do you ever see Noah chastise the fan base or admit there is an attendance problem"
Who the hell is he to "chastise the fan base" for choosing to spend their money elsewhere? He seems smart enough to know that. In terms of the "attendance problem" I'll simply assume you didn't read the post you commented on, because it says right up there the Rays are in danger of being last in the league in attendance again.
"Has he ever objectively discussed potential benefits of a new stadium."
The problem with that is that most studies of stadiums find there are very few benefits of new stadiums, at least for the taxpayer. It seems most of the "benefits" people want to talk about are subjective at best.
For me, I don't feel it is the role of government to help bring a championship to my city. I respect your right to feel otherwise.
Thank you Brandon!
ReplyDeleteDavid, I completely respect what you're saying, even though I think you are categorically wrong. I've noticed Pransky poke holes on varying opinions (pro-Tampa or otherwise)on a myriad of occasions. And let's not confuse things, that he points out fallacies in Sternberg or Selig's arguments is not an attempt to make Foster a sympathetic figure. Rather, they are culpable for telling us why they deserve a new facility. Rather, it's his attempt at leveling the playing field so we're not all speaking in platitudes and hyperbole. Though I think the Rays deserve better, it's their responsibility to tell us why they deserve a publicly funded facility -- especially one that could cost upwards of $600 MM.
Furthermore, I picked that specific link from many. They're on the web, just waiting for a savvy sleuth to cull them up. Mine was an attempt to support what I said with actual evidence, as opposed to assumed views otherwise. I'd invite you to point me in the direction of evidence supporting your opinion.
It doesn't matter, the Rays, Tampa, or any other person directly involved isn't going to give us any information about the issue, let alone a small time news reporter...
ReplyDeleteSo than why do you always complain this blog isn't "investigating" and exposing the info?
DeleteIt's like I been saying from jump street, as a propped-up news investigator that has felt the need to become the face of the opposition to progression in downtown Tampa & the Rays, one would think that opposed to sitting back, and reposting articles & assuming the future, that one would go out, and get the factual information for the people of Tampa, especially with so much information to gather to bring to light, whether right or wrong for the people. I'm just saying Anderson Cooper doesn't repost other related articles & assume outcomes, he goes and gets the story directly from the people involved. I know that's to much work, but I like said before, you could probably uncover a lot more then what's reported on from the people directly involved are planning, what possibilities are available in today's market that might save money or taxpayers money, and with ALL things given, is having baseball in downtown Tampa worth it in 2020-2025-2040???
DeleteAgain, I'm assuming it's easier to sit back & try to talk louder about the issue...
I don't feel the need to be the face of opposition to a stadium...
DeleteI'm just one of the only ones explaining the "other" side of the story. I provide historical perspective, as well as act as a watchdog for the taxpayer.
And I assure you, I provide plenty of factual information on this site. You just need to stop assuming this site is the enemy of progress. Or, just stop assuming everything.
It's a shame, because your followers deserve more then one-sided reporting, also there have been countless times your "historical perspective" has been misconstrued, and again don't you think that it would be constructive for the "taxpayers" if they knew the whole truth & understood other possibilities (like you bashed my idea of moving a lot of interior stuff from the Trop to save $ which would also save Tampa which is the same as helping save "taxpayer" $)...
DeleteAnd, let's not act as if a lot of your previous post hasn't said, or indicated with the intent of following an agenda that the Rays playing in Tampa isn't worth it regardless of the plan, and WITHOUT any real information from the Rays yet...
Here are the basic laws of physics for the TB area.
ReplyDelete1. To support an MLB team (baseball or football) the region needs a good economy and good teams. Regarding NHL (hockey) because Jeff Vinik is about 6 sigma to the right on the owner decency curve (as compared to the Glazers who are 6 sigma to the left), the Lightning draw well even when they are not good and the economy is not good, although who knows how it would have played out for them during the 2012 season if they had a 41 home game schedule vs a strike shortened 24 game home schedule.
2. The entire region has to support the teams. Denigrating St. Pete is a stupid and wasted exercise. Corporate support is and will continue to be thin. The demographics for the TB area are not any where near as favorable as those of Boston, NY, DC, SF, PHL, MN, LA (who do not even have to spend any money on the NFL), Seattle, Denver, Dallas, Houston, etc.
3. When the owner of the MLB team continually tells us how rotten the Trop is, it is no wonder that attendance shrinks even when the economy is marginally improving year over year (2012 vs 2013). Can you imagine for those of us who had or have real jobs in the competitive world, saying to our customers/prospects - yes I know my current product sucks, but as soon as the taxpayers provide me with better resources, then I know you will want to buy my product.
And based on the low attendance--this Rays team is going to be gutted this offseason if they don't make the playoffs.. No way they're going to be able to afford keeping this roster, even with the new TV money. Remember, they were a postseason miss away from losing money in 2008.. and we know they lost money in 2009.
ReplyDeletePrice is definitely gone--and Zobrist, along with Longoria could be next.
If you want to avoid this happening--fans need to get to the games! TV won't pay all the bills.. people need to attend the games.
The Rays are one of the most profitable teams in baseball, according to Forbes, and thanks to MLB revenue-sharing.
DeleteThey can spend more money and promote more on-field success if they chose to profit less. But few owners make that choice.
It's funny after all the banter about Noah not being much of a journalist, he answers with "the Rays being profitable" (though I question your findings), especially coupling that with saying the Rays haven't opened their books, and who's to say they're not saving for a new ballpark?
DeleteWayda sidestep real criticism, and stay classy, lol...